Inside Virtual Reality
(The Myth of Transparency and the Myth of Reflection)
A couple of weeks ago I spent two minutes inside a virtual
reality. I put my hand into the dataglove, the heavy,
hardwired
goggles were lowered over my head--and suddenly I was through
the
screen and into a computer-generated environment.
A checkerboard
plain surrounded by a green field stretched to a blue horizon.
When I
turned my head, I could see the rest of my computer-animated
world:
red pyramids and yellow columns, a floating grey box, a
toy car and
airplane, a balloon overhead. Responding to the movements
of my hand
inside the dataglove, my vitual hand, yellow, disembodied,
floated in
front of me. Pointing with my index finger made me
to fly to an
object. I could grab the car or the plane and move
it to a new
position. Or look up at the balloon overhead, point
to it, and fly
up, the checkerboard plain receding below me. I flew
through the
balloon into an unseen cityscape...out of the balloon, arcing
over
the more-familiar plain and back down to the solid surface
of my
virtual world.
I took this trip at a press conference before a lecture and
demonstration advertised as "FROM PSYCHEDELICS TO CYBERSPACE."
The
show, April 30 at NYU's Loeb Student Center, featured Sixties
LSD guru
Dr. Timothy Leary, author and conspiracy-theorist Robert
Anton Wilson,
and the first public demonstration of Virtual Reality (VR)
technology
on the East Coast. I had been fascinated with the
concept for months,
and when I heard this road-show was coming with the real
equipment, I
made sure I got to try it.
Virtual Reality (sometimes called artificial reality or
Cyberspace) is hardware and software that puts you inside
a
computer-generated graphic world. The goggles (or
"eyephones")
position two TV monitors before your eyes, aligned to create
a 3-D
stereoscopic image. When you turn your head to "look
around," your
head movements are tracked electronically and the computer
alters the
image before your eyes accordingly. The illusion--the
experience--is
of a complete, 360-degree environment you can look around
at and move
through.
After two minutes of tooling around in VR I was pretty spaced
out. (That is the correct term.) But I felt
proud and ripe for the
future when Eric Gullichsen, President of the SENSE8 Corporation
of
Sausalito, CA, whose equipment this was, told me I was a
good pilot.
Gullichsen is a demure and clear-speaking 30- something
young man with
a scraggly beard and a very long blonde ponytail.
Recent VR systems required half-million-dollar computers to drive
their software; Eric's "Desktop Virtual Reality"
prototype is run by a
Sun Sparkstation, a $12,000 dollar computer now selling
as fast as the
top-end Macintosh, and which Eric predicts will be down
to $5000 by
the end of the year.
The dataglove gives an even
better idea of how fast this stuff is
moving out of the lab and into our lives. A year ago,
Eric's demos
used a prototype that cost $8000. Now he works with
a
"Powerglove"--made by Mattel for Nintendo.
It sells for $79.
Even with a lot of power behind it, SENSE8's VR is about as slow
and low-resolution as it can be to work at all. But
you still get a
sense of the possibilities. It's not so much that
the experience
doesn't live up to the hype: more that the experience
is hard to
connect with the amount and variety of hype.
Doing It was brief, unique, somewhat ineffable. The hope,
hysteria and hypotheses that have arisen out of the concept
of VR is
what the rest of the event at NYU was all about: several
hours of
dreams and visions, tech-talk and peptalk on what this stuff
is for
and what it will do. My two-minutes' experience aside,
you can't help
but feel Something's Up, just from the assortment of strange
characters and corporations clammoring to jump, or at least
keep an
eye, on the VR bandwagon.
Representing psychedelics at the "From Psychedelics to
Cyberspace" show was Dr. Timothy Leary, the former
Harvard Prof. and
Acid-activist, now willing to commit his career-long utopian
dreams to
this straight, labcoat technology. (The work of nerds!)
Age 70, he
comes bounding on stage, energetic and radiant, in brand-new
white
Adidas and a sharp suit sporting a "Just Say Know"
button (for sale,
$2). His ramblings have slowed, but you still have
to pay attention
to follow the playful and curious threads of his thinking.
Among many
other things, he's here to contend that 90-percent of the
engineers
and programmers creating the current personal-computer revolution
are,
like Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs (the founders of Apple
Computers),
veterans of psychedelics. That Silicon Valley is a
stone's throw from
Berkeley and the Haight, he says, is no coincidence.
Technology (of all things) is allowing Leary to speak in a new
and more accessible way about the benefits of altered consciousness.
He thinks the experience of these computer- generated realities
breaks
down the "straight" idea of a Real World or an
Absolute Reality as
much as the LSD experience did--but without the stigma of
"Drugs,"
which has always prevented Leary's theories from being taken
seriously. Instead of sounding like a chemical prophet,
he's talking
about technology and innovation and competition, like some
Lee
Iacocca-type on TV, "Working to make America great
again."
During the show, Leary was the first to demonstrate the goggles
and glove. He was strapped in by Gullichsen, then
took off, twisting
his wired head around, giggling, and squirming in his chair
as he
glanced, pointed and flew through his imaginary world.
"Whoa-ho,"
came his self-mocking laugh, "I've been here before!"
"PSYCHEDELICS TO CYBERSPACE" pulls virtual reality into
the realm
of drugs, and also into the world of Science Fiction:
"Cyberspace" is
sci-fi writer William Gibson's word for his conception of
VR. Gibson
posits the ultimate interface--what he calls being "jacked
in": a
direct link from machine wires to human nerves and brain.
In the
world revealed in his 1984 novel Neuromancer, Gibson's characters
can
jack into cyberspace--a computer-generated visually abstracted
matrix
of information--or into the live or recorded senses (the
"sensorium")
of another person.
Gibson's vision, and his role in the development of the concept
and consequences of VR, is taken very seriously; his name
comes up in
every VR speech, and the scientists talk like he's one of
the boys.
Gibson's idea of a direct interface is beginning to happen
(in work
with damaged hearing, experimenters are connecting microphones
directly to auditory nerves); current VR technology is not
direct, but
tries to make the human-computer interface transparent (that
is,
perceived as direct). The effect is to put "you"
(some part of you,
some ratio of your senses) into an artificial world that
you can
actually move through and operate within.
"Artificial Reality"--the first term used to describe
computer
and video environments--was coined by author-inventor-engineer
Myron
Krueger in the early Seventies, and is the title of his
seminal book
on the subject. Written in 1972 but not published
until a decade
later, Krueger's Artificial Reality presented all the major
concepts
guiding today's VR investigations, including the idea of
a dataglove.
Krueger, hailed by all present as the "Father of Artificial
Reality," was the first speaker. "I feel
a little like Rip Van
Winkle," he said, "except that it's the rest of
the world that's been
asleep for 20 years." A good-looking, square-jawed,
clear- eyed
American, he could be your milkman or your mayor, or your
math
teacher. He has the down-to-earth practicality of
someone who, in his
words, "knits computers," but he too talks about
science fiction's
role in real-world breakthroughs: "I don't read
as much now, but when
I was younger I read everything. I used to believe
it when someone in
this field said they hadn't read science fiction; I used
to believe
it, but I don't anymore. I don't think it's possible."
Conspicuously absent was the best known and most publicized of
the VR pioneers: Jaron Lanier, a 29-year old white
rasta and high-
school drop-out distinguished by his long dreadlocks and
his NASA
contracts. He makes the most mystical claims for VR,
which might not
be taken seriously were he not ahead of everyone in VR software
and
hardware and working for the government. Jaron (everyone
here invokes
the demi-diety on a first-name basis) sees VR having therapeutic,
ritual uses--in the way of psychotropic drugs in shamantic
tribes. A
recent Wall Street Journal article on Lanier offered these
brave but
tentative subheads: "COMPUTER SIMULATIONS MAY ONE DAY
PROVIDE SURREAL
EXPERIENCES," and, "A KIND OF ELECTRONIC LSD?".
You get a sense that Leary and Wilson are hitching their old
messages to The Next Big Thing. But, in fact, the
connections they're
making hold remarkably well. One message is that VR
does what
psychedelic drugs do. Another message is political:
how electric
communication will break down the fascist control of centrist
governments. "It was electrons," Leary says,
"that brought down the
Berlin Wall".
Politics, drugs, science fiction, philosophy, and mysticism are
just a few of the fields and factions inspiring and being inspired
by
the technology and inventors of Virtual Reality. When
consciousness
is extended by electronics, science and philosophy are in the
same room, and the
ramifications everywhere in between.
Leary, Wilson and Gullichsen each referred to VR as part of an
electronics revolution that will change television from
a passive to
an active medium--the Viewer will no longer be in the thrall
of the
broadcast monopolies, whose centralized control stems from
the current
state of TV technology (i.e., TV is cheap to receive, but
only a
government or big corporation can afford to produce and
broadcast).
That's changing, with cheap VCRs and portable cameras; with
cable, and
especially fiber-optic cable, which will increase television's
interfaces with computers. All of these new forms
(including, soon,
VR) give the individual more control and choice as to how
to use the
medium. Strictly speaking, "Television"
as a medium is visual
electronic information; your Mac is as much a TV as your
Sony.
Television will no longer be just a receiver for a centralized
broadcast medium, but one component of an interactive, computer-based
communications network.
"VR is a network like the telephone, where there is no central
point of origin of information," Jaron stated in a
recent interview in
the Whole Earth Review. "Its purpose will be
general communication
between people, not so much getting sorts of work done."
He's already
created a "Reality Built for Two" (RB2), a virtual
space in which two
people interact.
Virtual reality is like the telephone medium, which
opens a new
realm for human interaction but doesn't affect the content,
i.e., what
you talk about. The technology of VR per se has nothing
to do with
what you create or do within it. But reactions are
strong whenever you explain
the concept. Fear is common, a kind of Brave New World/1984
paranoia.
A professor I described this stuff to waxed rhapsodic about how
it signals the end of the
mind-brain duality, creating a sort of spiritual or mystical
materialism. (John Barlow has published an article
on VR called Being
in Nothingness.) Leary and Wilson look into VR and
see a
technological utopia. Others dream of its pornographic
possibilities--virtual sex-partners. A visionary-
rebel like Lanier
is drawn to mystical ends; as the Wall Street Journal observed,
"[His]
obsession with Artificial Reality seems to reflect his dissatisfaction
with conventional reality."
These are all understandable human reactions. Every new
medium
works like a mirror, reflecting back some part of ourselves.
The
telephone, in this sense, "reflects" our speech
and hearing. VR is a
mirror that reflects our entire consciousness--more than
anything specific about what VR does, these reactions reveal
us.
Marshall McLuhan addressed this phenomenon in Understanding Media
(1964), labelling it "Narcissus as Narcosis."
In the myth, Narcissus
falls in love with his own image, unaware that it is his
reflection.
He is numb or blind to an extension of himself, and remains
unaware of
the medium operating on him, in this case, a reflecting
pool. With
any new medium, we are entranced by its content--which is
an extension
or reflection of some part of ourselves--but remain numb
or blind to
the operation of the medium itself. We are able to
look through or
conceive into a mirror because it is a perfect visual technology,
it extends our sense of sight with true high-def accuracy. But
the surface
of a mirror (the place where its technology is operating) is impossible
for us to focus on
or perceive as a two-dimensional plain. Every media technology
entrances us with its content but operates in a similar blind
spot.
The thinking of McLuhan (who was dubbed "the Media Guru"
around
the same time in the Sixties when Leary was accorded guru-status
for his work with psychedelics) lurks at the edges of a
lot of the
ideas VR is inspiring. Like Gibson's, his name came
up several times;
Gullichsen quoted McLuhan--"In the future we will wear
our nervous
systems outside our bodies"--as a preface to demonstrating
his
data-goggles and glove. And Leary later gave a good
illustration of McLuhan's best-known maxim, The Medium Is
the
Message: "When Moses came down from the mountain
with the Word of God
carved into those marble tablets, let me tell you, boys
and girls,
those were not suggestions...."
McLuhan prefigured the electronic extension of consciousness more
than 25 years ago: "Having extended or translated
our central nervous
system into the electromagnetic technology, it is but a
further stage
to transfer our consciousness to the computer world as well.
Then, at
least, we shall be able to program consciousness in
such wise that it
cannot be numbed nor distracted by the Narcissus illusions
of the
entertainment world that beset mankind when he encounters
himself
extended in his own gimmickry."
All the reactions to VR (the "Narcissus illusions")
say nothing
about how this particular mirror works or why our brains
are able to
conceive into and make from this mass of electronic information
a
space that is perceived as real.
VR technology does not create "reality" in any sophisicated
way;
in fact, it works in the most unsophisticated way, revealing
our
simplest perceptual illusions. The "space"
one enters during the VR
experience is not visually sophisticated; rather it takes
advantage of
our inclination to conceive three-dimensional space out
of two
dimensions. In the West, we have been trained to see
depth in the
simplest two-dimensional drawings if the lines of perspective
are
right. We perceive depth in a line-drawing of a cube
(the classic
"optical illusion"), but this is a relatively
recent technical
development (perspective drawing is a Renaissance invention).
The
effect will not work in a society whose visual perceptions
have
not been trained in this way.
Myron Krueger: "What VR does is highlight the status
of
artificial experience which we already have lots of."
Jaron Lanier:
"The reason the whole thing works is that your brain
spends a great
deal of its efforts on making you believe that you're in
a consistent
reality in the first place. What you are able to perceive
of the
physical world is actually very fragmentary. A lot
of what your
nervous system accomplishes is covering up gaps in your
perception.
In VR this natural tendency of the brain works in our favor.
All
variety of perceptual illusions come into play to cover
up the flaws
in the technology."
Entering SENSE8's "flawed" virtual reality on April
30, 1990, was
the culmination of an exactly nine-month gestation period
whose
conception was my first encounter with the idea of electronically
extended consciousness in the real world. From then
on it was as
though I was being bombarded by the concept, and from so
many diverse
angles that it was impossible to ignore. It started
on August 1,
1989, when I read an article in the "Science"
TIMES about a device
called a teleoperated robot. The operator of the robot
moves two
mechanical arms that move, remotely, a robot's arms.
A helmet covers
the operator's head, with speakers by his ears and two small
video
monitors before his eyes--with which he "sees"
and "hears" via the
video-camera eyes and microphone ears on the robot's head.
The
technology allows delicate and dangerous work (like disarming
a bomb)
to be done from a safe distance. The term "telepresense"
has been
coined for the perceptual illusion: "The closer
you come to
duplicating the human experience, the more easily your mind
transposes
into the zone as though you were there," operators
say. "You forget
where you are."
"Telepresence" got me, and the idea that "your
mind transposes
into the zone as though you were there." This
was the first real
example I'd come upon of what McLuhan had predicted more
than 25 years
ago, the electronic extension of consciousness or electronic
direct
experience. (Like VR, telerobotics puts your consciousness
elsewhere.)
Shortly after, a young Seattle programmer friend of mine asked
if
I'd heard about Virtual Environments, and it was from him
that I first
learned of the goggles and glove and suit you could wear
to see in and
move around a computer-generated space.
The next time I encountered the idea was in the unexpected
context of an interview with Jerry Garcia in ROLLING STONE
(Nov. 30,
1989). "Have you heard about this stuff called
virtual reality?" the
lead-guitarist for the Grateful Dead asked his interviewer.
He went
on to describe the idea quite cogently, and also to connect
it with
psychedelics: "You can see where this is heading:
You're going to be
able to put on this thing and be in a completely interactive
environment...And it's going to take you places as convincingly
as any
other sensory input. These are the remnants of the
Sixties. Nobody
stopped thinking about those psychedelic experiences.
Once you've
been to some of those places, you think, 'How can I get
myself back
there again but make it a little easier on myself?'"
Then I read Neuromancer--Gibson's sci-fi novel (and I've
never liked sci-fi) which introduces and explores "Cyberspace"--and
the interview
with VR-pioneer Jaron Lanier. Reading Gibson and Lanier
at once,
I was startled by how close sci-fi and fact had become.
Appropriately, it was via ECHO, a new computer bulletin-board,
that I found out about "From Psychedelics to Cyberspace."
I'd joined
ECHO a couple of weeks before; getting a modem and entering
the world
of telecommunication transformed my computer from a typewriter
to a
tool for putting ideas online in real-time, a new medium
for
conversing with a group of unseen others, like me, typing
down the
telephone lines.
VR is the beginning of another new medium for human
communication--huge amounts of processed digital information
used to
create the bare-bones of what our brains perceive as "reality."
What's
new is that this realm of information is encountered as
experience.
The content of the telephone medium is speech; the content
of the
television medium is movies and drama and talking- heads:
with the
telephone or TV, you are aware of the inside and the outside--of
the
medium and its limits, and of the real world that surrounds
it. The
TV or telephone experience does not exist separate from
its entrancing
content (which is itself a different medium, what McLuhan
calls "the
juicy piece of meat carried by the burglar to distract the
watchdog of
the mind"). In VR, there is no such duality.
You know it's not
"real," and when the perceptual illusion works,
you are just Being
There. The content of virtual reality is not speech
or action or any
other visual or auditory medium. The content of VR
is consciousness.
This sets up a basic question about the difference between
information and experience. Information--the kind
that comes from
other people or books or movies or TV--is mediated experience.
It is
not like the Real World--the real, direct experience of
things that
surround us. VR is also information, but it is perceived
as
immediate; that is, it is not mediated or digested or translated--
it
is just "lived." If "experience is
the only teacher," it was the
experience of psychedelics that taught many people, in a
profound and
direct way, the limits of "reality." The
experience of VR can teach
that too, and many other things.
Playing a video-game or reading a book or watching TV or a movie,
there are times when you are unconscious of the medium,
when you are
immersed in its content (when "the watchdog of the
mind" is chewing
that meat). At other times you are aware of the television
or the
book's boundaries. Within a virtual reality, there
is no such losing
and regaining awareness of your state. You are aware
of its unreality
and perceive its reality at the same time and all the time.
In fact,
in VR you have a heightened awareness of perceiving reality
in an
unreal system. Your consciousness it at once the perceiver
of VR, and
its content.
All of which is thrilling to ponder. But if this stuff is
going
to develop on a mass scale, it has to get there via some
marketable,
real-world applications. Many people think VR will
be carried through
this phase by pornography, as was the case with the
VCR less than ten years ago.
Krueger and Gullichsen, guys on the practical, hands-on, I-
need-funding side, are working to come up with simple, high-concept
applications that even America's short-sighted venture capitalists
can
understand. This sets up some strange situations (since
they are
courting business partners but depend on frontmen like Leary
to bring
in the crowds and press), like when these older corporate
guys in
suits arrive en masse to check-out Gullichsen's gear.
They look like money; like their good graces could shower SENSE8
with contracts and options. They struggle with the
eyephones and the
glove. They did not grow up with TV--they are not
good pilots. Eric
is deferential and cogent and clear, trying to dispel with
his manner
any doubts his long blonde ponytail and rough beard might
cast. And
then the suits have to sit through the lecture, surrounded
by
college-age Trekkies and every stripe of New Age huckster
(a man
selling "psycho-active soda" for three dollars
a cup), and listen to
Leary and Wilson make fun of Bush, Quayle and the drug-addict
Drug
Czar.
Gullichsen does his best to talk toward the most mundane
applications: Imagine an architect showing a client
around a
"virtual" building (it's been designed but not
built). The client
wants to see how it looks with bigger windows, so the architect,
in
the virtual world, can reach over and enlarge the windows
with his
hands. Another area he talks about is education--the
Defence
Department's use of VR in fighter-pilot training is probably
the most
sophisticated form now in practical use. A related
application, the
first one we're likely to see, is in entertainment, VR video-arcade
games.
Krueger has one device that's so basic and useful, it seems
inevitable. Simply put, it allows you to use your
unencumbered hands
to do anything a mouse does--access menus, draw pictures,
move text,
etc. (Of course, this isn't VR, you don't put goggles
on and put your
head inside. But it should make Krueger rich while
he waits for the
technology of the goggles, and the 3-D imaging and computers
that run
them, to catch up to his ideas.)
Leary, not surprisingly, flies off into the future, imagining
VR
as some kind of holographic telephone. "You'll call
up your friend Joe
in Tokyo and say, Where do you want to meet today? and press
some
buttons and the two of your are strolling in Hawaii, or
meeting in a
cafe in Paris or on top of Everest, or joining Aunt Ethel
for tea in
Idaho."
Jaron Lanier seems to have the most developed ideas about how
VR
will function and where it will be relevant. He talks
about
handicapped people experiencing full-motion interaction
with other
people, and tele-operated mircorobots performing surgery
from within
the human body. But he also builds on Leary's dreams
of the
therapeutic uses of psychedelics as tools for exploring
the
unconscious mind.
"Idealistically, I might hope that VR will provide an experience
of comfort with multiple realities for a lot of people in
western
civilization, an experience which is otherwise rejected.
Most
societies on earth have some method by which people experience
life
through radically different realities at different times,
through
ritual, through different things. Western civilizations
have tended
to reject them, but because VR is a gadget, I do not think
that it
will be rejected. It's the ultimate gadget.
"It will bring back a sense of the shared mystical altered
sense
of reality that is so important in basically every other
civilization
and culture prior to big patriarchal power. I hope
that that might
lead to some sense of tolerance and understanding."
Jaron envisions
the VR experience, potentially, functioning like an Amazonian
shamantic drug ritual for the electronically re- tribalized
Global
Village.
VR is now at the Wright Brothers stage, the thing's sputtering
and popping and just barely getting off the ground--and
everyone's
trying to predict what moon-rockets will be like.
Back then, instead
of William Gibson, you had Jules Verne's sci-fi model; and
in sixty
years we did walk on the moon. But who could have
imagined any of the
mundane and earth-changing reality in between-- 747s and
People's
Express and plane-food and in-flight movies and jetlag?
Who, looking
at television in the 40s, could have predicted Watchman
TV or
palm-size video cameras or the worldwide resonance of seeing
Tiananmen
Square on CNN? And the speed of the computer revolution
is on an
altogether different scale.
If cars had progressed at the same rate, they'd cost $10 and run
for a lifetime on a tank of gas. In ten years flat
we've gone from
4000 to 4 million transistors on a thumbnail chip, and the
power is
quadrupling every two years. At this pace, science
fiction like
Neuromancer becomes a myth of the present. The technology
has
progressed faster than our ability to even imagine what
do to with it;
it's almost as though it has appeared magically and full-grown
in our
midst. The VR toys now being demonstrated barely scratch
the surface
of the brain-extending fun and games possible when creative
thinking
gets applied to this new and limitless computer power.
Hold tight:
the unimaginable future of virtual reality is only a few
years away.
16.5.90
VR Update--4/93 Since writing this VR piece in 1990, I've had a couple of other encounters with the medium. The first was in a movie theatre. I'd just seen "JFK," and a new VR machine was set up in the lobby. It cost four dollars for a two-player game in which you share the same virtual space with a competitor. The object was to shoot each other. The helmet and joystick worked better, the images moved faster and the environment was more interesting than the previous VR set I'd been in. I ran into this same double machine a few months later at a They Might Be Giants record-release party (the album had a futuristic title--"Apollo 18"). The first time I tried it, I stalked my opponent (someone I didn't know) over the geometric landscape, up and down stairs, around colorful objects, wary of the flying pterodactyl that could carry me away at any time. I could see the other person, who was green, and my own outstretched yellow gun hand before me. I was comfortable looking around and moving through the environment, and managed to win, three kills to one. The second time I went in, it as with my friend, the composer Joshua Fried, as my opponent on the machine. Before we started, it was Joshua's idea that, instead of fighting each other, we hang out in the virtual space together, and shoot at the pterodactyl as a team. This was a true insight on his part and an entirely different experience. Once inside the virtual space, I looked around for the other computer-animated character, which I knew to be Joshua. We saw each other, and moved to stand close together. (Perceiving ourselves "together," though we were in fact 15 feet apart on separate platforms, blind under helmet/goggles.) Facing each other in this silent, mutually imagined, low-resolution visual space, Joshua and I had the same instinct: to make contact. Immediately, using our gun hands, we waved to each other. Knowing it was him, somehow, was genuinely thrilling. The rest of the time we followed each other, pointing to and shooting at the flying dinosaur. Joshua remembers looking down and seeing our two pairs of feet together. The experience of Being Together "there", of actively connecting with an unrecognizable friend in an imagined place, contained a vast insight about this technology. This simplest contact, even in the most poorly defined visual space, was exciting and authentic and "felt"; it was natural and instinctual. The "game" or "entertainment" idea which keeps players competing at a distance and out of touch seemed the leftovers of an old fashioned technology, and dull and superficial by comparison. Joshua and I had been together. We'd communicated without words and without out actually seeing each other in an imagined space, a consensual illusion existing only in our brains. The tenousness of the contact heightened the reality of the connection, like touching someone in the dark. And the experience would have been the same if we'd been in different rooms or different cities or different countries. When we got out of our helmets and stepped down from our platforms, the guy running the machine said, "What are you guys-- consciencious objectors or something?"